Interview with Annemarie Dooling on Facebook, T. Greg Doucette on Google Warrants, and iP…(Episode 171)

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you’re listening to the Apple Insider [Music] podcast welcome back to the Apple Insider podcast where we discuss all things Apple iPod iPhone iPad and more this is adventurous episode 165 and I am your host Victor and joining me is the legendary Mike worthley wow legendary I think that’s possibly the first time I’ve ever been called that but I’ll take it have you heard the legend of Mike worthley oh I think that’s a tale yet to be told yeah I haven’t either never mind let’s move on so new iPhones new iPhones new iPhones no seriously the fall 2018 iPhone lineup production is expected to start it’s expected to ramp up in the June quarter yeah I mean this shouldn’t come as a huge surprise to anybody there was a lot of stories last year about how the iPhone 10 started production late we don’t know if there were actually delays in the production or if this was some grand plan by Apple to rolled out in November whatever it what happened is what happened Apple has to start production at least in trial volumes in in May or June to ramp up to tens of millions of them by October and November so this is a physical reality you can only make so many phones in so much time so I this is good news I believe it’s an accurate report that Apple’s starting production in June I think the three models has yet to be completely determined but it’s buyable with two of them being OLED and one of them LED it’s it’s good news overall if you’re an Apple fan and it’s good news if you like seeing October phones instead of not being able to find what you want till the middle of December right so first things trial production is is not actually the real term that we use for this kind of stuff this is called pilot run and pilot run or Pilot production is is the the actual term that goes in here because first what happens is there’s design verification test and then engineering verification test and then you go to Pilot run and pilot run is the first time so design verification test and Engineering verification test is where samples are basically handbuilt you know you’re you’re you’re doing them in numbers bordering on like fives and tens they are they are tiny things that are basically hand done there’s no assembly line for them and pilot run is when you say okay we’ve got the real tooling we’ve got the real assembly line we’ve got everything in place with production parts that are not done in small numbers we’re going to go ahead and turn this on for anywhere from 50 to 200 so what you’re saying is that 50 to 200 are artisanal iPhones no 50 to 200 are run on the production line as if they were producing mass production today yeah they they turn on the line they have everyone in place and they build 200 of these things as if they were shipping them in boxes to stores and those 200 then get picked apart and tested to make sure that they pass that there’s no problem in the assembly line that’s going to cause an issue and then once you’ve got 200 that that pass then you ramp up and you say we’re going to go for 2,000 or then you turn on for 10,000 because you can only make so many in a week right so if you can crank out 2,000 in a week or you can crank out 5,000 in a week or 10,000 in a week just depends on how many actual production lines they have turned on um because that’s what happens is is you you can’t get more out of the same number of people so what you do is you create more lines and you open up more lines and put more people doing the same job at the same time so you instead of having just one assembly line you have 10 assembly lines or 20 assembly lines or whatever the number is to be able to get the volume that Apple does and so that’s that’s the process here is it’s design engineering verification uh pilot run and then you turn on and you turn on to slightly smaller production at first like that 2,000 number and then you ramp up to your full production yeah and there’s a lot of interim steps in there that get involved in all of that and we never really have a good idea when we go from one phase to another I the thing is though is people talk about how apple is just now dis discussing issues with the phone or discarding this design feature discarding that design feature and I don’t think that’s the case well as we heard as as we figured out about the last phone right these things are designed two years in advance right right there there are no last minute decisions here unless the last minute decision was something that was enabled and thought of two years ago you know the the iPod Touch 3 third generation is my favorite example because it’s the one where everyone was rumored to to have a camera in the back of it and when people got them and took them apart there was an empty cavity in the back of the case where the camera could have fit and could have gone that totally was reasonable so they planned two years in advance are we going to have a camera are we not going to have a camera and enabled themselves to make that decision with the iPhone there’s a lot less flexibility they pin things down and stick with those decisions rather than giving themselves that out anymore and so if we’re talking now about cameras or not cameras or things like this this is something that they were talking about a year and a half ago when they were doing it on the first iPhone 10 this is nothing new no now this is it’s not really about the camera it’s about the camera’s dot projector right where they they project these infrared dots over a person’s face to create the depth map well I mean yeah the thing is Apple calls us the whole true depth camera system which is kind of a snower if you put in the word camera in there because it’s surface mounted infrared projectors and receptors and that kind of thing so you know but on the other hand true depth sensor array doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue in the 21st century maybe the 24th but not the 21st yet we just need to say it a lot more often no okay I’ll go with that so the other thing that’s predicted is that we’re going to get the the true depth sensor array there I set it in iPad which could happen relatively quickly we we know there are two iPads imminent and we know that from from overseas regulatory agency filings we don’t know what they are we don’t know if they’re iPad Pro Models we don’t know if they’re a refresh of the fifth generation iPad we don’t know if it’s a iPad air3 we really literally don’t know any details the the prediction that face ID is coming to the iPad is not what you’d call a Fearless One I don’t know living on the edge Mike this is adventurous episode 165 living on that quarter inch Edge on the top of the iPad I guess the the technology whether you like it or not touch ID is going away sooner or later there will be iPhones in Apple’s lineup that have Touch ID for a while like the same there will be iPads that you can get from Apple that will have Touch ID for a while but if you think that Apple’s going to go back I I think that that’s not going to happen I I don’t foresee apple reverting back to Touch ID on a Model that is already started the shift to face ID there would have to be some cataclysmic catastrophe to cause that and it’s just not there and we’re not seeing it I mean there were a lot of concerns about face ID given the fact that Samsung’s facial recognition system before didn’t work very well you yourself on this very program talked about how face ID was going to be very problematic because you predicted that banking institutions would not get on board with facial recognition I didn’t think they would and apparently that Apple’s already worked this out and I’m I’m glad to hear that they did it’s I’m I’m surprised that the stick in the mud banking institutions were good with the new technology it took them long enough to come on board with Biometrics on phones in the first place I just I had to bring that one up sorry no no I’m good with that I I have no problem being called out when I’m wrong I mean that’s part of this gig right I mean the only people that know exactly what’s going on are surrounded by a cylindrical wall over in Cupertino at this point so the best we can do is based on information we have from the past and things we can glean from other sources like the banking industry and before I made those remarks and before I predicted that on podcast I talked to some people in the banking industry here in Washington DC and they were like well we don’t know we’re not so sure about this it part of the shift is because Apple really didn’t give them a choice it in the apis for face ID they they they just migrated the whole Biometrics over where if it’s something could use Touch ID before now it can magically use face ID bam fade a comple so as it should be and again I’m good with that I mean it was a very smooth migration I I I knew it was going be good I didn’t know it was going to be that good and we actually have a video that our video guys did that compared the S9 Biometrics to the iPhone 10’s Biometrics and I’m not going to give away the results of that but you really should go take a look at that and it’s uh it’s I think it’s a fascinating case study in how the two different companies do business and and like to in integrate integrate new technologies into their products now we are going to have and it’s part of the the fall lineup the followup to the iPhone 10 and in another move that I know will catch you flat footed Mike production is going to cost less for the successor to the iPhone 10 than it does for the iPhone 10 itself I yeah unsurprising but noteworthy it’s also the screen is a hair smaller so there’s a little bit less in way of costs assuming they can Tetris the screens on the substrate material sheets that they get from the manufacturer I mean there’s there’s a lot of factors that weigh into the cost reduction and cross your fingers that this will be passed on the consumer but you never know these days we rarely see cost savings passed on to the consumer when it comes from Apple because what Apple likes to do is keep consistent price points from year to year for the most part they’re they like having these nice round numbers to fall on right so you know this model costs $4.99 this model costs $799 this model costs $9.99 and they fall on these price points and they stick with them for the most part um we do see from time to time price reductions when the cost has come down enough to support that well in the middle of a product line yeah I mean notably the first iPhone did that and Steve issued us all apology and credit that’s not what I’m thinking of I’m thinking of examples from from the past in terms of the Mac line for example where the top-of-the-line MacBook Pro or the MacBook Air for example when it debuts costs $1,699 but over time that price comes down to $1.99 or $1.99 yeah well that’s inevitable inevitably going to happen year after year after year but it it’s when the product is actively the newest we very very rarely see that so like for instance while we’re not expecting the iPhone 10 as the iPhone 10 to reappear in the next lineup we’re expecting three new phones to supplant the 8 plus and the 10 we’re not expecting the iPhone 10 to be say their bargain model it remains to be seen if it will remain in the product Matrix that spans from $349 for the all the way up to the the big the largest capacity iPhone 10 so what we’re going to get in the fall is we’re going to get that that crunch where everything between the lowest and the current model minus the iPhone 10 probably gets smooshed a little bit price-wise with the new stuff laid on the top which expands just a hair upwards what’s what’s interesting then is that in the past we’ve always kept one model over from the year previous right you know this year for example you could buy an iPhone 7 you could buy an iPhone 8 you could buy an iPhone 10 or an SE for that matter but the you know the seven hung around and so you would you would have thought that if it followed form if it followed the pattern that the eight would hang around oh I think the eight is going to hang around I I I think the eight will be the vestage from this model year and the iPhone 10 will be supplanted by the three new models we’ll see I mean I something’s got to fall off the back end it’s not at all clear if there’s going to be a new SE there are a bunch of conflicting reports about whether Apple in it whether they’re not whether they’re going to release it whether they’re not but that’s kind of the point in the crazy season where we’re at right now about iPhone rumors so while they have the existing SE or a new SE at the low end uh the iPhone 6 appears to be a big thing in the developing market so that’s going to stay on so somewhat surprising that it would be six not 6s that was a little bit of a shock to me too it I kind of wonder if this is one of those Tim Cook moves where hey look we we’ve got a billion of these processors MH so let let’s just hang on hang on with them like the like the A8 is in the is in the homepod right so I mean it’s a currently produced processor cuz it’s in the homepod so keep the S going because they’re still making a8s keep the keep the uh 8s going because the A9 is in the is in the iPhone SE right so I mean why not if you’re using the processor for one other crucial product say the homepod why not keep it going in an iPhone intriguing you know it makes sense from a Part Supply standpoint I’m wondering if it makes as much sense from a user EXP experience standpoint from a user experience standpoint I think having a wide range of phones at a variety of price points I think that is in the best interest of the consumer regardless of user experience and we’ll see I mean there there is a healthy secondhand Market there’s a healthy hand me- down Market because every time I get something new for work something that I’ve got gets handed down to somebody who has something less and then that phone gets handed down to somebody that says something less and sooner or later something drops off the end of that but I don’t toss my phones into a shredder when I’m done with them yeah today ask me again how the Privacy thing goes later on now Facebook Facebook and Cambridge analytica and one of our special interviews is going to be talking about this a lot more so let’s let’s leave some room there for our guest but there are a number of people who are rightly miffed at Facebook and the the issue is that there’s as many as what is it 50 what’s the number of people who are concerned in this like some large large number of people 55,000 people took their personality survey uh yeah it’s been a while it’s been a couple of years that’s less the that’s less important than the fact that it that the survey then scavenged over two million people of worth of data that did not take their survey and did not agree to getting their data scraped by Cambridge analytica right and Facebook on their part did not call the a data breach because they wrote their terms of service in such a way that this didn’t quite meet their definition of a data breach according to their terms and well they are technically correct it isn’t which is the best kind of correct yeah it’s it’s really kind of a crappy kind of correct as far as consumers go but play crappy games Win crappy prizes and that’s really kind of what we’re dealing with here it this is this is not a good situation and this is what I alluded to a little bit before about curation um I have a hard time believing that Facebook wasn’t at least peripherally aware of this the whole time I mean they said back in 2005 that hey you need to delete your data and they said oh sure we’ll go ahead and do that and that was the end of the conversation why why was that the end of the conversation and Zuckerberg when he releases his statement on Facebook at no point in his statement on Facebook did he apologize to the Facebook users that waited for a CNN interview an hour later this is all kind of crazy this is well and when they had an all Hands-On meeting with the Facebook staff to talk about this guess who wasn’t present zook Cheryl Sandberg the two people you’d expect to hear from weren’t even there to talk to their own employees about this huge problem and so for for like 5 days they didn’t say anything on this which is an incredibly long period of Time new period of time and and again I want to clarify that this isn’t about what political party use the data or anything like that this isn’t about well what about so and so they used it too that’s irrelevant that is a complete red herring in regards to this story it’s not entirely irrelevant it’s it’s we should be concerned about that too we’re talking about this right now yeah and yeah let me let me clarify it is a concern for everybody but waving whatever flag you want to wave saying well it’s only important now that’s kind of that’s that’s garbage that’s all right so first of all the FTC is investigating Facebook over this they’re going to start talking about what’s going on on and finding out where Things fall and what what they’re going to do MH right they’re looking into whether or not Facebook violated terms of consent decree from 2011 right and that decree was issued because they found that user data had been provided without the prior knowledge of the user so that’s happening we published a tip talking about how you can delete your Facebook account completely and the the steps aren’t that hard and the steps aren’t that hard because they’ve gotten in trouble before it used to be impossible to delete impossible yeah there’s no way and they would not lose your data at the same time before that before they got forced to put in the delete that is you could say that you wanted to get out and they would retain a copy yep and if you signed back in or you signed back in through a third party site unknowingly like if they had Facebook comments on their page and you loaded their page you were right back in where you started and and everything was still there yeah that’s also important to note on the delete your Facebook account it can take they say it’ll take a couple of days but it can take up to 21 days for it to actually happen and during those 21 days if you use a Facebook login for anything if you have an app that uploads data to Facebook for anything if you have anything connected to your Facebook post at all like say that match three game that will save your your progress if you log into Facebook it will not process your cancellation and it will do it without telling you that it didn’t process your cancellation so I this is so really there are a couple of if you want to properly delete your account before you just follow our steps and our tips on deleting your account you really need to go into your settings and apps within Facebook and delete all of the apps that connect to Facebook so that you don’t have one of these mistaken connections take it over and keep you from deleting your account yep and and you know I you and I were talking about an article that I was working on that goes into some detail about deleting those apps and then deleting because it’s not easy for everyone to extract themselves from Facebook there are sometimes apps that you need to have for example there’s a uh insurance company that connects with Facebook for single sign on and so you do all of things through your insurance company through your Facebook account um I mean there are legitimate reasons to stay on the there are communities there are there there are resources that that you know if that’s your community and that’s one of two communities in the world that talks about your specific need you know there there’s a real reason to stay there but if you want to minimize this kind of thing then you should review those apps you should consider cleaning up old posts and replies and like that you may not care to have hanging around you can do these kinds of things without necessarily doing the full delete yep in another venue I say that on every October 31st and every April 1st you should go over your subscription services and figure out what you’re still using and what you’re not to keep that down that seems like a good time to also do digital maintenance like this is figure out what Facebook still needs to be connected to and what it doesn’t and prune out what it doesn’t so it it just seems like a good day to get those things done yeah you’re really good at that pruning all right right now we’ve got a very special segment of the Apple Insider podcast with guest anarie dueling and Anar the other night I was looking on Twitter and I saw a tweet of yours a thread of yours that started getting a lot of attention and so I I wanted to ask you to come and and speak to me and speak to our listeners and and sort of help us understand what’s going on help us understand what the story in the news is with Facebook and Cambridge analytica and then tell me a little bit about your thread and and then more than that just your perspective on it in your role and what you do sure so uh there’s been a little bit of attention focused on Facebook uh this week a little bit more than usual I should say because Facebook is always always in the news um but basically Cambridge analytica uh was Under Fire for what is being described as using data that they um took somehow from Facebook that was used to possibly manipulate the election um and so the common view is oh my God how did this outside company get this information uh how does Facebook have all this information that they gave to them but that’s just not actually the case um the actual case is that anyone can have access to most of the data that Facebook has on you so they used very simple ad tools that are found within Facebook and Facebook does give people who use their ad tools a little bit more information than the average user even the average publisher so um using these business profiles you can get a pretty good idea about user demographics you get a pretty good idea of what people like what different groups of people do almost down to the granular level of you know location age people who work at such and such company people who are interested in such and such uh activities now the the thread that you’re talking about that got a lot of attention was something I posted about a publisher I worked at quite a while ago uh it was actually 2011 so a lot has changed since then but even back then uh we had so much so much data from Facebook and it was almost alarming to me as a young Community manager to see how much we could get on our readers just from using Facebook login so this was during a time uh of tremendous growth for Facebook right so you know 2009 through 2012 Facebook went to having something like two million 200 million users to almost a billion users so it’s an extreme amount of growth and this was also the time period where you had things like Facebook Messenger became um almost mandatory basically right in your app uh they acquired WhatsApp they started started using Facebook connect so they had so much data on you and Facebook connect people might not be familiar with it by the name but it is the little box that pops up whenever you try to log into another website that says hey why don’t you log in with Facebook instead and it’s super easy you don’t have to make a new user account you don’t have to remember a new password I pretty much use it for everything so this is a very common tool that allows you to log in to another site without creating a new user ID you’re basically using your Facebook ID to access that site what that also means is that those websites can use your data from Facebook to uh inform their decisions so for us I was in uh perhaps a very naive position where I wanted to make our content amazing I was so sick and tired of people coming to us on Twitter and Facebook and saying I don’t want to read about Kardashians I don’t want to read about gossip I want to read real news where is the hard news and you hear people complain about this all the time the truth is it’s there but we have Gatekeepers we have to go through to get people the news so my thinking was that we could use this data to possibly create popups or better recirculation modules that would surface the kind of news people were always asking for in a better way and you even see this today if you go on any news website and you see in the sidebar it says trending or stories for you in your city uh that’s a very small version of this so even with my very very rudimentary data knowledge at the time I was able to get help and create a SQL database that pulled out from the Facebook uh I think it was called the friend graph at the time uh but I could be mistaken I was able to connect that to your activity on this publisher so I could see everything from every story you shared what you read when you thought you were in private browsing mode uh I could read who you spoke to the most I could see who you shared with the most on Facebook uh and if you had also used Twitter login which you know back then several people used both Twitter and Facebook login they forgot which one they’d use they’d click on both of them there’s not really a lot of hurdles to jump through to use those so people would forget all the time and have both of them so by then if you had uh used Twitter login Twitter gave us your email address which means that I could connect just from your handle on my publisher and see all of your email activity I could see your Facebook activity I could see your Twitter activity and by email activity I mean the you create a profile of you based on your email address and activity you had done across our site so I had a lot of information on a lot of people and uh you know it was a little bit terrifying for someone as Junior as I was in that position but I still didn’t think this was anything out of the ordinary per se wow and one of the things that that you wrote in your thread was you know something to the effect of of why is your browser always set to private mode am yeah yeah I always put everything in private now since then uh and it’s actually uh a sore spot with my own product because I have to test things and I’m just not able to on my own devices but people forget that it’s not just Facebook in fact you know you’re seeing all these people that are saying delete Facebook and get off Facebook we’re well past that even if you don’t exist on Facebook as I just mentioned I could find out information of you just based on what Facebook has on your friends I could basically find out I think there was a story a few years ago on someone who was looking for uh an an exchange parent or a friend or someone theyd lost touch with and they were able to track them down through other people that were only related to them in a tertiary way because Facebook now has so much information that they can sort of fill in the gaps of like oh this person and this person and this person have someone in common they work with them they go to this place with them here’s a photo of them they’re not on Facebook but we have an idea of who it is so you can never really go fully dark we’re sort of past that what you can do is sort of hide in the noise so I am still um a pretty active poster on Facebook I’m I’m on Twitter a lot I use Amazon which has so much more information on us than Twitter or Facebook combined um I use all of these sites that just have constant information what I don’t do is connect them on my phone and most iPhones if you’ve got the Twitter and Facebook app um your iPhone will connect to your apps automatically so that’s something that you can sort of see in that little left of home pull down screen is your notifications from Twitter your notifications from Facebook they’ll come right to your phone I don’t do that and the reason is because my phone has location data my phone has my phone number it has my contacts uh most people don’t even realize that Facebook connects to your contacts when you upload the mobile app so I turn everything off on my phone I particularly have my location off constantly until I absolutely need it for something like Google Maps and then I’ll turn it on and turn it back off again because we give away so much information that’s a little bit more precious in our phones and has a little bit more to do with our personal safety on our phones and most of the time we don’t even realize it absolutely well this week we’ve published a story telling people the steps to delete their Facebook account and I I’ve written one that’s still in draft state that talks about what are some of the things you can do if you’re unable to delete your uh Facebook account you know because there as you say you’re using it for single sign on for for connecting applications it’s really difficult to extract yourself there are communities that this is the only place you can reach those people there there are a lot of reasons to stay involved in Facebook um but what are kinds you know you talk about hiding within the noise and I I think of you know sort of tempering that what what do you you know maybe watch the things you like or occasionally delete the things you like just through the using the activity log oh yeah I do that constantly uh I you know if you look at your activity log which most people don’t you can get a very small glimpse of what Facebook is compiling on you uh and it’s really silly sometimes I even look at it and I’m like my God you know what must an Advertiser think of me because I tend to use Facebook for sort of the lowest common denominator in my Life The Fluffy things the cat videos the baby pictures I uh I do so much hard news during my day-to-day that Facebook is kind of the Escape for me uh so Facebook probably has this profile on me that is nothing like how I actually am and in fact I went through um and The Verge one of the sites that I work with has a a very very robust article on how to uh Delete the the uh things that Facebook has you marked as your interest for advertisers and it was pretty hysterical for me it was you know a lot of high-end stores that I never shop at it was some pretty uh strange amorphous things like velvet I don’t I don’t know why that would be in there um or random cities I had maybe been to Once uh so it it creates some very strange profiles of people and I I think a lot of that is because I do have all of this turned off and I tend to just sort of like a strange amalgamation of things uh but I I do recognize that for most people you know I I like a lot of random things because it’s it’s a necessary for my job I sort of need to have an ear on the ground most people have maybe a 100 200 friends you’re within the same town you’re within the same Community it’s a little bit harder to escape the more specifics having your location turned off having your phone pulled away uh not giving Facebook access to your uh credit card which there was a a way I think after the election where everyone was donating to just like whatever they felt was important and we all hooked our credit cards up to Facebook and I didn’t even realize it until last week my friend had a fundraiser and I went to go somehow hook up my my PayPal and it was like hey we already have your credit card number it’s like when did I give it my credit card number you don’t even remember because they make it so seamless and easy and you know there’s been a lot of Articles that’s come out that says this is Facebook’s uh it says they’re art they make it so seamless that you don’t even realize what they have on you but I think the real issue here is that we’re scapegoating Facebook uh like I mentioned you know if if you look at Amazon what Amazon compiles on you what Amazon has on you it’s pretty Facebook is pretty small potatoes in comparison and even Twitter has all this information I think what we’re seeing now is that this was used for political purposes in a a completely legal way that Facebook designs tools for it to be used but people don’t like the idea that they were tricked with their own information people don’t like the idea that their activities have somehow been used against them and this is where Facebook has come under hot water yeah you know years ago I read a story that suggested that even if you didn’t use Gmail for example that because so many other people did and you interacted with them that Google could put together a very good profile on you even though you didn’t actually have an account with them I mean I can’t imagine that Google doesn’t have every piece of information on us think about all the things we Google and and even you know I keep my Wi-Fi off I use vpns um and every once in a while I will see Google AutoFill in something that is so dead on and I’m like God how did they knew somehow but how did they know so this is just sort of a hazard of where we live right now and what I really hope people took away from that thread and I I think it sort of took on a life of its own but what I really hope happens is that we can come up with some sort of agreements or legislation around how to use this data because the real rub for me is that you know Mark Zuckerberg and Cambridge analytica everyone involved said they had no idea that they were crossing a line and that’s because you can’t really police morals to someone I I mean even in my own life I get questions from our ad sales team about our newsletter data that I’m like I can’t give you that information that’s someone’s personal information about how they read this news and it it’s so different from person to person and team to team based on what you’re doing with it or what you want to do or what you hope to achieve and your thoughts around it and your own ethics that there is no way that we can police the morals around this we can just hope that there is some sort of legislation or guidelines around how people can use this information I I think one of the things that would have made me and maybe others feel more comfortable about it is if we had been told repeatedly and clearly in simple language what was being done and did we want to give it permission did we agree with that you know when when we talk about location services on iPhone for example when an application requests location services uh when they start using the location API iOS pops up a notification and says hey this application is trying to use location services do you want to allow it and they they do this kind of thing again and again each time some application requests that it comes up and it says do you want to allow this thing until you finally tell yeah absolutely and make it go away and had Facebook beat us over the head this is happening this is what we’re doing this is what’s going to happen I I I think people would have been a lot less caught off guard and a lot less uh dismayed yeah i’ agree with that the big thing to remember is that Facebook has no Community manager I mean they’re a community of however many billion people it is today and they don’t have anyone that actively looks out for user interest so no one actually is there in the room with Mark Zuckerberg to say hey why don’t we think about how people would feel when they get this yeah they seem historically to be very reactive to people being upset you know every time there’s been a change to the Privacy controls going back to 2008 2009 it’s it’s reaction to people being upset they just don’t understand people and this is not unique to them I think Twitter obviously has this problem too where there’s so much harassment on Twitter but these are huge platforms that I think came into this world thinking they were just going to be platforms and unwittingly find themselves being uh homes of communities and have no idea how to do that where you know you know in opposition to that you see something like Reddit which is very much a platform but For Better or Worse understands that it is A Home of multiple communities and has constantly uh reinvigorated this role of community manager whether that’s news publisher manager or AMA manager or just a community manager I mean Eric Martin was in that role for like a million years so they’ve always considered um on Reddit that they have communities and that you need to come at this from a position of dealing with people but Facebook has never had a community manager Facebook has always had business managers and even from a publisher perspective getting uh I mean I’ve been in this business for like a dozen years and getting some time with one individual who works at Facebook to discuss the needs of your audience is nearly impossible you need to have a line of business or want to try one of their new tools or have an idea you want to pitch them if you want to come to them and just say hey I’m a little bit concerned because we’re sending all of our users to Facebook and I don’t know what this means you’re just not going to have any time with them because they don’t come at this from an understanding that these are people they come at from an understanding that these are points of data and I mean just thinking about the future we really need to figure out what that means for them as a company and us as users because they’re getting very heavily into VR and you could just imagine the kind of data points they’ll have with VR I I’m sort of struggling to think about that right now so you’ve mentioned Amazon a couple of times and we’ve talked in the past on this program about things like uh Echo and Alexa and how much that gathers on people and and one of my other uh one of my co-hosts on this program in weeks past has been freaked out because he’s been in this weird position where he feels like he’s been in a room with an Amazon Echo at one of his friends house and he goes home and he checks Facebook and Facebook knows what they were discussing even though no one was talking to Amazon through through the Echo and I know that sounds crazy but he he has the sneaking suspicion that how else would Facebook have known kind of thing so how much information does Amazon have what what kind of stuff is Amazon going on so uh I’m I’m not specifically an expert in that uh because I deal mostly with the social platforms but when you think about Amazon I mean you can buy something and then think about how many weeks afterwards that exact item or similar items follow you on every single website across the internet think about how those follow you on Facebook uh think about how much uh historical information they have wi with regard to your credit cards and different accounts that you use and your addresses I mean I have my I pull my credit report monthly just for safety and there’s been an error with my address on that damn thing for a year but Amazon knows exactly where I live and they know my entire history of when I moved from place place to place and who I send things to the most and where my office is so they’ve got all that data on me which is something that you know my my credit score can’t even get right and then you think about the kind of patterns that they would have and the kind of things that you buy and now with Amazon Echo which I I own an echo dot but I can’t bring myself to use it because it’s just not a very intuitive shopping experience um I mean they they have that that’s got to be they have to be listening to you at least part of the time or there’s got to be times when they think you’re talking to it or they’ve they definitely have such a wealth of information that they’re the one that scares me the most especially because they acquire things so quickly and now they just seem to be consuming all these other businesses that also have your information so I think they are actually going to be the ones to watch I don’t know that it’s going to be Facebook I think even this might hopefully be a sobering experience for Facebook but no one has even uh thought about the amount of information Amazon has yeah so what scares me about Amazon right now they’re they’re best at reordering things by voice if if I want to try and order something new they it’s it’s pretty much a Miss but if there’s something that I’ve ordered in the past I can go and ordered in the past via web or mobile app ordering by voice to reorder that will be very smooth because they they’ve indexed my order history the thing that concerns me with them and the reason why I unplugged my echo two days ago is that they updated the software to allow it to try and do uh chained conversation or contextual conversation where you know you prompt it the first time and ask it your question and then it keeps listening so that if you have a follow-up question it will be able to answer and my experience with that was really really terrible because I I prompted it and asked today a math question and then 15 minutes later I was having an entirely different conversation and it all of a sudden piped up with something H was it related um not really but it was just very spooky because here it is 15 minutes later coming back into the conversation inserting itself and I hadn’t prompted it and I thought we were done you thought you were done it did not think you were done yeah I mean that that concerns me and I mean this is Amazon’s shtick right they’re trying to get into machine learning in a way that no one else is right now where they’re thinking about uh how you live your life and and they’re also thinking about drones and delivery and getting into your house when you’re not even home I mean that was something that was in the news a while ago where an Amazon deliverer will just come into your house and we’re just supposed to trust that so I think you know first of all these businesses think about life in a completely different way that we do so they don’t uh think about privacy they think this is all rad the same way that I was like oh we’ll get data on users and we will know exactly what kind of content to serve them and some people think that’s creepy they think that they’re making life easier for us by consuming all this information but we’re just not used to it in a way that these are to most of us machines and they’re machines that are listening to us and they’re machines that are interjecting into conversations with humans which sounds bananas but it could be something that is uh common in place soon I mean we’ve got bots in Facebook messenger and people have conversations with them yeah you know I I think part of what’s happening is that they’re looking at it from solving problems that they have and not solving problems that that we have it’s it goes back to that role of community manager that Amazon doesn’t have that either you know they’re the reason they want to get into our homes is I I I suspect they were experiencing a rash of people stealing Amazon packages off the front porch and they said well if we can just put them inside the home behind the lock then we don’t have a problem without ever thinking that that people might have a trust concern about that yeah I mean that’s a really good point none of these companies think in a way that we do they don’t understand why their needs are so foreign from ours but they the role of community manager is something that you often see in startups when they want to grow and and a few years ago it became really fashionable to change the title of community manager to growth hacker uh so you really see when people people really show their colors when you see them think about growth over the user experience and wait wait wait was that the same role though was that even this is that what happened where that came from yeah I mean because I always thought of growth hacker as as the marketing guy willing to do unusual marketing stunts to grow as opposed to community manager that’s where that came from yeah so in the world of Community Management you it initially started out as just like are users okay how do you feel more of a customer service element then you get you know it sort of elevated to be more of like a social media manager role and then there was a lot of contention around that like are you learning distribution now on top of customer service are you’re also thinking about where content is going are you’re also thinking about how to acquire people then it became all about acquisition we’re sort of in a period now where I think that’s hit saturation where we realized that like you know with with fake news and with Gatekeepers and with all these problems with Facebook data we’ve reached the point where we need to think about people again but for a long time you know Community manager jobs were like how many users do we have how many newsletter subscribers how many people reading how many registered logins how can we have more how can we make it so that our users can invite people how can we make forwarding on newsletters better how can we give discounts for people to send to their friends and uh I think that we you know people got tired of that I know I got tired of it I know a lot of people I talk to just got tired because there’s something really beautiful in being the kind of community manager where you think about real human experiences and you think about how humans are interacting without you affecting that or Without You nudging them in specific ways and you sort of tailor experiences to that but um you know it is Facebook’s world now and we live in it and Facebook is the king of saying you don’t watch video you’re going to watch video now and guess what it’s going to be everywhere and guess what now you’re going to have the volume on and guess what now it’s going to be this size and we all sort of do it because we’re on that platform already so um we’ve we’ve morphed into what I I think personally is a bad place and I’m I know that in the community manager World we’ve all we all got a little bit excited when all the Facebook problems happened because it could be maybe a bright light that maybe we can go back to doing user behavior and and jobs that are a little bit more embedded in real people I certainly hope so so for for my listeners what kinds of things should they do that that are achievable for them you know what what kind of of best practices do you practice well I always have the location turned off on my iPhone and that’s a really simple one um I’m sure everyone knows how to do it but if not it’s just in settings and and privacy location services uh I always have that turned off I have um background turned off in all of my apps so that they’re not doing anything I don’t know that they’re doing um and and I do have it on in Twitter occasionally just because it Twitter takes so long to load when you turn it on in the app for some reason um so I have I have all of that turned off I have Bluetooth turned turned off constantly um I have uh photo sharing um I have all of that turned off um basically anything where someone can access my phone I have turned off just because there’s there’s so much information in here I mean your wallet and Apple pay and just all kinds of things that you don’t exactly always know how people are accessing it because even if apple is giving you information you don’t know what the other side is doing so I really focus on what I lock down in my phone um and then I I use a VPN sometimes on my laptop I am not as um I don’t do it as much as I probably should uh and then the other thing that I’ve been doing that might be crazy who knows anymore uh is I got a cover for my camera on my laptop uh everyone was doing it they they make these now readily available a little window that you can open when you have a meeting and close it when the meeting’s over um and then I of course turn microphone off on on everything when I’m not using it so those are a few things I do um I’m not sure exactly how well they work but um oh and also go through the apps that are hooked up to your social accounts it may seem really easy that you can like log in with certain things but do you really need it or you know can you just use a password for something that using once or do you even need a login for something is there something else you already use that fits that uh I think we went through a period in like the like 2010 2011 where there were all these really cool things you could hook up to Facebook to like take a quiz and see what painting you look like or like what’s happening in Shark Week you can make a fun video with your profile photos for Shark Week but just remember that then like now Discovery has all your Facebook information or whoever else so just be cautious of what you are using Facebook connect for that’s so helpful thank you so much for that of course thanks so much well I I have really enjoyed this is there a place that you you would like to to tell our listeners to follow you on Twitter that sounds good they shouldn’t get their hopes up I’m not super interesting but uh yeah always great to talk to new people uh it’s traveling Anna it’s TR a v l i n g a an n a fantastic thank you so much I really appreciate you making time for this of course thank you yep now the other story that I want to talk about which is for our other special guest is that police have have started taking advantage of technology and changing the way they issue warrants to try and solve crimes and this happened in my town Raleigh North Carolina where detective have obtained warrants to search a huge variety of Google account data and and not just of suspects they’re just casting a wide net and this has privacy Advocates concerned so this is the second privacy Story the first privacy story is Facebook and Google and police using data using warrants to collect data is is this one now what happened is that there have been 19 search warrants in since 2015 and what they’re doing is they’re saying they’d like to set a huge perimeter but it’s specific because it’s a defined perimeter and they want to get every account within the vicinity and get information on every account within the vicinity of that within a time period yeah and you might say well but this this doesn’t seem to be a problem because they’re defining where it is they’re defining when it is and they’re not going after everyone they’re just trying to get everyone’s information within that to find who they’re looking for but the problem with that as as we’ll discuss in the interview that I’m going to run here is that it’s um it’s a little too general for a lot of people’s Comfort level and what we don’t know is if it’s actually constitutional or not it’s it’s not at all certain that it is legal to go ahead and cast that wide a net and include people who who have no connection to whatever crime they’re researching and in in this particular case uh Raleigh PD has been submitting these warrants to Google and and looking for Google accounts and you know we we come up with this story because we know that people submit tons of warrants to Apple and that apple complies with warrants on a regular basis uh at the same time Apple has been very widely uh in in the news for telling law enforcement to go jump in the lake when it’s something that’s technically impossible yeah I mean that that’s a conversation for another day but there’s reason right well but that’s that’s rehashing the San berardino thing where where you know we we talk about congressmen who want to go ahead and put together a bill that says that there must be back doors to encryption and things like that here what we have are are warrants that are a new question just because we haven’t seen them before so we have as as our very special guest for this segment coming up we have a an attorney who formerly worked at Apple who has some insight into this and so we’ll have we’ll hear from him in a little bit welcome to a very special segment of the Apple Insider podcast uh joining us we have t Greg duet and you were an engineer at Apple for a time from I think system 8.5.1 you said all the way through OS 10 developer preview for correct Well site clarification I was a combination of tech support and sales I worked at a camp campus and uh we were quasi Engineers but not developing the OS we were just trying to troubleshoot the stuff that broke still work right Still Still knowing the innards yeah yes I used to uh spend a lot of time optimizing Mac OS before we got to the Mac OS 10 era so clearly you know where where all the the pitfalls are when it gets into tech and and all the things that can go wrong I try at least yeah so somehow along the way you you left that and then crossed the country and came to NC Central and pursued a law career in law yes so I I realized in undergrad um well let me back up a little bit I dropped out of college Midway through I couldn’t afford it so the reason why my time at Apple was cut short was that I was no longer uh in college you know my job there was contingent upon me being a computer science student um so during the time where I dropped out I got active in the legal field because back then it was one of the few areas where you could get a decent paying job without having a college degree I could work as a file clerk became a paralal and soone uh So eventually went back to college got my degree in computer science but realized um that it it was I enjoyed the technology side of it I’m definitely a technophile but spending my day going through lines of code trying to squash bugs was mind numbingly tedious and I decided that I wanted to do something different so in my mind I was going to go to law school and do patent law and then when I got there realized that patent law is even worse so I finished law school because the only thing worth worth less than a law degree is onethird of a law degree U so I ended up graduating and what I actually do now is a combination of criminal defense work with college students and business litigation so anytime a vendor needs to sue someone else or if there’s a dispute between businesses or if someone is trying to start a business from scratch I kind of operate in that hybrid area between business and criminal okay now we recently covered here at Apple Insider a story about a warrant that issued in Raleigh uh that was issued to Google and as As I understood it roughly there was a perimeter around a crime that Raleigh was asking about and they were just basically sweeping up anyone and everyone within that perimeter yes yes so this is a there are actually several warrants related to different crimes that all kind of became public at the same time and the reason why is that in Raleigh about a year ago a brand new building that was under construction caught fire and it was one of the biggest fires Raleigh has had in its 200 plus year history and the police had no real leads they believed after the uh the inspection of the site that it was arson but they had no idea who would have done it so one of the ways they tried to figure that out is that they submitted a warrant to Google basically asking for all Android devices that happened within a given Geo fence between a certain two-hour period on a given day and that was the first that the media had caught wind of a warrant of that type to be honest with you it’s the first time I had seen a warrant of that type and based on that the media went digging through other cases and found that they had been used in other scenarios so now we’re trying to assess how common this use is and there’s also a discussion about whether or not it’s even constitutional okay take take me through that well so what I’m going to do I’m going to nerd out a little bit for your listeners apologize if you all are not uh fans of legal history but anytime we’re dealing with most warrants and and searches in general your Guiding Light is the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution and I’m not going to give it to you verbatim but the gist of it is that if there is a search of your person your house your papers or effects it has to be reasonable so unreasonable searches and seizures are prohibited and warrants cannot be issued except upon what is called probable cause so that’s the the gist of what the Fourth Amendment and bodies the reason why that was part of the Bill of Rights why it was adopted is that back during colonial times the British government used what were called General warrants they were described as rits of assistance and basically what these were is they empowered a local law enforcement magistrate or whoever else to search anyone anywhere anytime for any reason and the rits were issued in the Name of the King so if you had a king who issued a rid of assistance in his first year of the monarchy and he goes on to rule for 30 years well 30 years down the line that rid of assistance is just as valid on day one of year 30 as it was of day one of year one and this was used routinely to harass colonists anyone that would criticize the crown and even if you’re suspected of a crime just having people barge into your house unannounced to take whatever they want uh was seen as an affront to citizenship in the colonies to what it means to be British in their case uh so after the revolution the fourth amendment was put in place to really restrict this so that’s why you have a total ban on unreasonable searches and seizures that’s why the warrants are supposed to describe with particularity what is to be searched what is to be seized so that kind of history is how we got where we are today so take that as your background and and gloss over the first really 200 years of the country to the 1960s where you start having technology becoming more common place and telephone booths in particular uh we all you know most of us growing up saw payones saw phone booth you don’t see them much anymore now uh but back then they were every they were used regularly and the United States government had a long-standing practice of conducting surveillance of people on these telephone booths they would use what’s called a pin register which basically you dial a number and the call gets routed to the intended recipient a separate copy of the call also gets routed to the government so they could listen in on conversations made at these phones and in the 1960s there’s a guy named Catz I don’t know his first name but basically he was a gambler and the FBI thought that he was using payones to place calls relating to his gambling bets so at one particular phone booth they had a pin register put on it found out that yes he was in fact gambling prosecuted him for using the this a federal crime when you’re using a telephone line uh to engage in this type of activity charged him with a gambling offense and he challenged the premise of the search arguing that the government EES dropping on his telephone conversation was an unreasonable search and the United States uh Supreme Court in a case called cats versus the United States ended up agreeing and this became kind of the foundation stone for what is called the cats test which basically has two parts if you have an expectation of privacy in a given communication and your expectation is considered objectively reasonable then the government eavesdropping searching or whatever else on that is considered a search for Fourth Amendment purposes and then you have to go through a separate analysis to determine whether or not it is in fact reasonable so for example we’ve have certain types of searches that are considered reasonable automatically even if there is no warrant so if the police come to your door and they say can we search your house and you give them permission you consent to the search the court considers that reasonable there is no requirement to get a warrant because youve already given them permission to do it uh if you are out in the open and let’s say you’re just you know walking around with uh marijuana you you know smoking a joint in a state where marijuana is still illegal you’re conducting that criminal activity in plain view so there’s no requirement to get a warrant because it’s in plain view of law enforcement um so those types of things we call those exigent circumstances those types of scenarios are reasonable searches even if there is no warrant issued so that’s the first piece is there a warrant is a warrant required I should say if it’s not required it falls under one of these exent circumstance categories if a warrant is required if the type of search would normally be unreasonable without a warrant then the question becomes is there probable cause to believe that a crime is being committed by the person that’s going to be searched or are the doc doents that are going to be retrieved evidence of a crime being committed and does the warrant describe with sufficient particularity what’s being searched when how all of that other stuff so you take all this together you put this into the framework and the way the courts have applied it over time in the context of digital Communications is they analogize your digital stuff to physical stuff in the real world so there’s a lot of case law where the courts have looked at emails for example and compared them to physical letters the address information of a physical letter is in plain view you can see who it comes from in the return address you can see who it goes to anything beyond that what is actually inside the envelope is something that searching that would be unreasonable unless you had a warrant for it so the courts have similarly taken a view of that when it comes to telephone calls so who the number what number is called what number is calling how long is the call that’s all considered envelope information but the contents of your actual conversation are supposed to not be accessible same deal with emails what we consider Header information for folks that deal with the technology side of it the Header information is similar to the envelope information of a physical letter the police can get that without having to ask permission of anybody uh but if they wanted to see the actual body of the email most of to the time they need a warrant can I can I ask though I mean the the sub the subject is a part of the header right yes but the subject is content yes so that’s that’s it’s not a perfect analogy and what you’ll often find in uh the court system is that cases will tend to fall on one side or the other as whether or not it’s a uh it’s considered address information or envelope information just depending on how many judges you can get to agree at any given point in time um there’s a lot of very messy threads of case law that have developed over time that frankly the courts are not very good at clearing up because we’re behind the times as far as technology goes you know if you look for example the Supreme Court considered a case uh I think it was about three years ago now where a GPS unit was attached to the car of a drug dealer and the government basically compiled his movements over the course of however many months and eventually that was thrown out but the reason that it was thrown out is because the police trespassed on his property to attach the GPS the fact that there’s an actual you know dosier if you will of everywhere he’s going over the course of however many months uh whether or not that’s objectively unreasonable has not really been addressed the Supreme Court for the first time really looked into Mobile phones in particular I want say it was two years ago where the Court held that a warrantless search of a cell phone without one of the those exent circumstances so giving consent or whatever else a warrantless search of a cell phone is unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment and that police need to get a warrant to do that um because a lot of these types of technological questions what’s content what’s not what do you have a reasonable expectation of privacy in and what don’t you uh has not been very well articulated by the courts because the courts don’t know how to deal with this you you got judges who are a bunch of lawyers addressing very technical stuff put together by scientists and trying to merge the two into something that actually works so pick up where I before I interrupted I I you I’ll be honest with you I don’t remember where we were at I was I was just I was just going that was great so so we were talking about the history and how we got here and you’re you’re telling us about the Fourth Amendment oh oh I remember I got it I remember where we were so we’re doing this this distinction between envelope information and content basically the envelope stuff can be searched without any warrant and it’s going to be considered reasonable the content needs a warrant if the government wants it one of the wrinkles that has developed is this notion of having information in the possession of a third party so if you think back to the context of a letter if I’m sending you a letter and you on your own decide that you want to give that letter to law enforcement you have the ability to do that the question is does the letter carrier have the ability to turn it over to law enforcement before you have been delivered the letter so we know for sure once you’ve got the letter on your end you can do what you want with it but what about the mailman and what the courts had determined was that generally speaking in the context of physical stuff that while the item is in transmission it’s unreasonable to search it they have tried to more or less do that in the confines of digital stuff but because so much data is always in the possession of third parties especially now that you know everything is connected to the cloud all of your stuff is stored on a server offsite somewhere um what you’ll have happen is that the governments can get warrants include as part of the warrants what’s called a gag Clause basically prohibiting the person being served the warrant from disclosing that they have been served the warrant and use that to get information uh so for example Dropbox a lot of law firms store their stuff on Dropbox I do as well Dropbox has very good security which is why a lot of lawy use it but if Dropbox receives a warrant from a law enforcement agency saying you know we have reason to believe that this Law Firm has access of you to information about a crime by this person and that data is stored on your servers give us a copy of it Dropbox will do that they will comply with that court process they’ll comply with the gag order not to tell you and you know you better hope you don’t have anything in there that’s incriminating because at this point it’s already in the government’s hands and then the question from the standpoint of you know me as a defense lawyer if you come to me and say hey I’m being arrested based on this information that the government shouldn’t have had access to I have to try and convince a judge that the warrant was defective in some way and they should never have gotten access to that information so tying this into the whole point with Google and apple they get access to all types of stuff as you’re roaming around your every modern cell phone has GPS bill built in as part of what is called e911 capability and unless you turn off your location services that stuff is always running so anytime you got a phone it’s going to track where you are and we use that a lot for our convenience you know when I leave my house in the morning my Apple watch connects to my Apple phone to tell me how long it’s going to take me to get to work and I think oh that’s cool I need you know I know whether or not I need to leave early or I can leave later or whatever else without thinking all that data is in The Possession of a third party and if the government wants to get it they can so at the top of the the top of the show you had mentioned that apple and the the San Bernardino case where they had helped the FBI there is a law written back in 1789 it’s called the all rits act and basically this is a general uh empowerment Clause if you will that empowers the courts to issue whatever rits they need to get stuff done so it’s all rits necessary or appropriate to a their jurisdiction so what you’ll have happen is the government will say I want a warrant to get access to this phone Apple can choose to cooperate on its own if it wants or if it says I want some sort of court process compelling us to do so the FBI will use the US attorney’s office use the all Ritz act and get a court order actually compelling Apple to do this uh so in the case of this particular warrant going to Google what the police have done is said here’s the geoc coordinates for this given geofence of when we think someone with one of your devices may have been here I’ve gotten a judge to sign this warrant authorizing us to get this information send it to us and on the one hand that’s some freaky stuff because that is very similar to kind of the general warrant type thing that the colonists rebelled against just doing this drag net on everything but the way the police have tried to tailor it to survive scrutiny by the courts is that the coordinates are fairly limited I mean it’s still an enormous volume of space but in the grand scheme of things it’s a very specific physical location they have limited it by date to a spe specific day they’ve limited it by time to a subset of usually two or three hours on that given day and in particular what they have asked is for Google or Apple to only return what is they considered anonymized data so they’re not actually giving you you know Hey Joe Smith was here at this location on this given day what they’re providing theoretically anyway I’ve not seen the data to know that they’re properly doing this but the idea is you have an anonymous identifier for whatever number of phones cross into or out of the Geo fence during that period of time and that theoretically gives police information that they can then use to help their investigation and what will happen eventually is as they narrow it down as they find out who they think is actually responsible they’ll find a given phone with a serial number or an ime or you know whatever or they’ll find a phone number and they can then use that information to get a separate search warrant specifically asking Google or Apple or whoever else for a complete GPS log of that given number for any span of time they want that’s usually how this process works I’ve had several cases where uh students that I’ve worked with you know some of them happen to engage in a street pharmacy I call it and I’ve had police obtain their GPS coordinates because they got their phone number as part of a search this is kind of the inverse of that where we don’t have phone numbers we’re trying to see who’s in a physical space but the hope is as far as the police are concerned that gives them enough information to do a further search and eventually find who it is they need is this something that has been challenged or tested these kind of of warrants at all is still too new it’s something we just discovered from my standpoint it’s definitely something that I’ve just heard about um I usually try to stay pretty up toate as far as Court decisions go and I’m not familiar with any appet case law that would have addressed these uh oftentimes what you’ll find is the Supreme Court hears a handful of cases every year and they set kind of the broad framework for how this stuff is done and the bulk of the nitty-gritty rules uh get determined by the courts of appeals for each of the given circuits and then the district courts who hear the main volume of cases will apply whatever rules the courts of appeals have developed to those particular cases from there uh I’ve not seen any appellant level case that has dealt with this ge offense type warrant as to whether or not it’s valid or not wild it’s you know it’s one of those things where I I worry about being over Brad but you know by by them specifying an area even if it’s a really broad area they can say that it’s specific is that right sort of so there’s really no the the scary part for most people is there is no fixed standard what you’ll find a lot of times with these cases and not just with warrants but really with any area of the law is you’ll have judges say there is no bright line test we look at a bunch of factors and we kind of feel our way to to what is or is not right so what they’re looking at is the scope of the geography being searched how big space are we talking about uh the scope of the time how much time are we going to be looking in this particular geographic area and what kind of information are we trying to get back as a result so if we only want a theoretically Anonymous identifier in a Tim limited space that is not that big that’ll probably be upheld even though it’s still kind of freaky and really feels like a general warrant but if on the other hand the police say you know I want to three block radius and I want it covered for a 72h hour period And I want you to give me the actual device the phone number and everything else you know that’s going too far so we know on one end that’s too much on the other end it might be okay and then you got a lot of gray area in the middle that is going to be up to a judge to determine whether or not it works up to a judge who is not really a technologist to need someone to explain it in terms that make sense correct and and I’ll for warn you a lot of Das and public defenders aren’t technologists either so you have a lot of a lot of messiness that can happen well you know my my thought was a number of people in Congress aren’t uh technologists either and they’re the ones writing the laws oh God politicians are terrible and it’s not just Congress but state legislators as well they’re God awful a lot of times what you’ll have happen is you know a lot of people have negative things to say about lobbyists what I will say is good lobbyists people that are actually trying to just represent you know a vantage point without doing it unethically uh lobbyists tend to know more about how stuff should be properly written than you know the people that you actually have making the decisions so if you have Apple’s lobbyists or the you know Electronic Frontier Foundation or whoever else these are folks that actually have the blend of technology and law background they will come up with model legislation for them to adopt they’ll be able to point out potential pitfalls and we we really need more of that because there’s just no conce able way you’re going to get more than a handful of Congress Critters or state legislators or whoever else to understand this well enough to make an informed decision on what should be the law yeah well I I think back to um last summer when Richard Burr and uh Diane Feinstein were proposing a bill uh basically their their guiding principle was that no device and no technology should be warrant proof nothing should be able to be um impenetrable to the law and so they wanted back doors in iOS they wanted back doors in everything they wanted back doors in encryption and you know as as all the technologist said but the math doesn’t work that way right you you can write the law but you can’t break the laws of mathematics correct and I think what you’ll find is that’s going to be an Impulse that politicians are going to have far longer than they should you know it should have been settled decades ago that any type of hack that the government can have is going to be either independently discovered or obtained and exploited by you know actors in the private sector it’s just going to happen that’s part of the big promise of cryptography the idea is that we had open- Source crypto everyone could look at the algorithms and crypt everything we’ll be fine and yet you still have politicians decades later who personally are benefiting from the advances in strong cryptography are able to you know the fact that we even conduct Commerce online as much as we do as a testament to how much the technology has improved but yet still have this magical thinking that you can give the government access to it and no one else and that’s just not how it works well and that once you give one government access that all the other governments won’t come knocking as well right and and it killed me because at that same time uh was the OPM hack right the uh the government agencies that were all haed and all the every single federal employees information was was vulnerable at that point because the government didn’t encrypt either yeah and it wasn’t just the federal employees it was several different government databases and like I was in like four different databases for reasons that I don’t fully know and for each one what they would do is they would send you a notice and say hey by the way you know your data has been exposed will give you a year of free credit monitoring and I got four of those notices you know so it’s it’s the government is terrible when it comes to data security every level of government that I’ve ever dealt with has been terrible when it comes to data security so what let’s let me ask you a different question because we were talking about this earlier before we started recording um and you alluded to a little bit so apple has a lot of information on people as well but Apple makes this big Claim about trying to protect people’s privacy more than most while still complying with warrants that they get all the time um so what what kinds of things do they have and what’s the right sort of behavior that you would advise an end user to take oh gosh hairy question I know so as far as what they have I mean they really have almost everything nowadays I mean you think about it they’ve got your text messages because those get routed through iCloud if you’re using you know iPhone to iPhone they’ll have access to your text messages if you’re just sending it via SMS they’ll have your GPS data they’ll have who you call and for how long they’ll have your health data a lot of times now I mean you know my watch checks my heartbeat every couple minutes and that data gets put onto my phone and if the government seizes my phone and wants to know if I was running from police at a particular time they can scroll back to those hours and see if I had an elevated heart rate you know Apple really and it’s not just Apple Google Android you know your internet searches anything you do Through Safari that happens to hit one of their servers um if you’ve got a laptop where you’re automatically participating in the program that periodically phones home to help improve app responsiveness you know all of this stuff is out there and and the question that end users have to decide is how much benefit am I getting in exchange for giving up this information and is that a fair tradeoff for me so from my standpoint I I give up way too much information to the cloud and I realize that and I’m okay with that because I I like a lot of the technological advances that have been put in place you know I love the stuff that Apple has done with geolocation and proximity alarms and kit and everything else I like all of that stuff but I’m also like I said I’m a technophile so if I had to go without it it would take a period of adjustment and I probably wouldn’t like my life as much if it’s something where you’re not accustomed to this stuff you don’t use it you don’t care about it then you can start making changes to limit how much of your life is still exposed to the outside world so for example you can turn off location services if you want in your settings you can go app by app and actually turn off access to that information for apps when you’re not actually using them you’d be amazed when you install apps on your phone how many have default access to everything all the time and you actually have to go through your app bya settings to turn that off on a per app basis um your Social Media stuff if you’re on Facebook Twitter Snapchat whatever else you’re creating a digital footprint that each of those respective companies has and can piece together with other stuff they buy from third parties cookie trackers or whatever else um so you got to decide if you’re going to continue being on those social networks if you are do you scale back the amount of time and content you put into them um those are all types of questions that every user’s got to got to contemplate and frankly a lot of folks don’t because we just we like the cool stuff and we don’t really think about you know what little bit of information you give one company what little bit of information you give another what little bit of information you give a third any given company may not have much of your stuff but if the government sends warrants to each of those three providers all of a sudden they can create a whole picture of you that tells them a lot more than any of the companies you’ve given stuff to individually has yeah and you know Facebook crawls the web and watches what you do on other websites anyway and creates a shadow profile of you so that they can create that that recommendation people you may know yes and uh so you know them in combination with Twitter and you’ve got a whole picture of a whole person yeah agree Google does the same I mean alphabet the parent company has Google to track your searches Gmail to search your emails YouTube to see what you’re watching online um we have just a whole massive digital space Facebook owns Instagram uh you know these Mega tech companies have a whole bunch of stuff that they can piece together to really learn more about you than sometimes you know about yourself all right I’m [Laughter] scared yeah yeah so I I don’t even know what to say next I mean it’s like where do we go from here well it’s it’s a Brave New World and to me my main concern is limiting the access that the government has to this stuff because For Better or Worse among the big tech companies some of them have common interests but they’re often all competing with each other so each one that happens to you know if they ever screw up if Apple ever really ticks me off with how they handle privacy theoretically I can go somewhere else I can switch to an Android phone or one of these other providers you know Blackberry out here is still around um but yeah they sell an Android phone now but on the other hand if the United States government gets all of my information it’s it’s not really easy for me to move to another country or if you’re in another country that’s accustomed to getting this information you know it’s not easy to just get up and change nationalities you know if I want to move from one town to another that’s one thing if I want to move from one state to another it’s a little harder but not bad but uplifting my entire life to go move to Canada or Australia or Britain is kind of hard to do so the main focus for my stuff is ensuring that the FBI us attorneys State prosecutors County Prosecutors local police limiting what information they get and ensuring when they do get that information that they follow the processes we have in place to a te to make sure they’re not getting anything they shouldn’t have and they’re not sharing it with people they shouldn’t share it with all right well I want to thank you so much for taking the time to talk me through the history of this and to to give that advice for our listeners this has been really informative and I hope we can do it again sometime in the future I look forward to it absolutely thank you so much now tell me where can people find out more about the things that you produce for public consumption so the main spot to find me is on Twitter I am gregore duet that’s g r Gore d c tte and every Monday we produce a podcast called fisal which is FS CK m l l that talks about the criminal justice system and some of the uh sorted underbelly things that happen on a daily basis yeah and I have I’ve listened to a few of the episodes and it is shocking it’s very entertaining but it’s it’s it’s gets your attention if you ever want to be scared take what happens every day in the criminal justice system and pair it with the exorbitant vast quantities of data that private companies can give to the government when they ask for it it’s a scary thought well on that note we’ll wrap it up thank you so much my pleasure thank you for having me and that that’s our show Mike that’s that’s our show we have opinions as always well Mike prun worthley I’ve got all kinds of good names this week thank you thank you so much for joining us for The Adventurous episode 165 and we will be back next week now again I want to ask you I’m enjoying getting all these pictures of people’s iPods running the podcast it’s so cool we’ve connected PE with people and talked with people that that we haven’t before and I’ve really enjoyed it so if you’ve got one of those please send them along we’re going to keep running those they’re so much fun and feel free to uh to tell us what you think either at newsapple or through Twitter at V marks on Twitter and uh we will be back next week next week is Apple event week so big big doings absolutely uh feel free to leave positive reviews on iTunes we’re always happy to hear from you there too and thank you so much we’ll be back [Music]

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